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So everyone’s making political posts, being that it’s that time of year, and I thought I’d make one of my own. I’m not normally one to do it, since I don’t think they ever change anyone’s mind and mostly serve to only irritate people, but I’m in a cranky sort of mood, so here goes.
The first thing I’ve noticed is an eerie parallel between fandom and politics. Between the vehement Twilight and Obama supporters. Now, calm down, this is not to say that if you like either of these things you fall into this category – I’m talking extremists, here. The kind of people that if you mention there’s a typo on page 492 of Breaking Dawn they fly into a Chris Crocker-esque fit of ‘leave Steph allllloooooonnnneee!’. By the same token, there are people that, if you dare disagree with anything Obama says – even a real, you know, issue, well, you’re racist scum (even Obama himself has started insinuating this, and it’s making me very uncomfortable – I can decide not to vote for you because I disagree with you on the issues, not because you’re black, you know). These are groups of people who are blindly devoted to something, and it’s really creepy (and, yes, a little cult-like).
However, I have no problem with people who say, ‘Yeah, Twilight had it’s problems but I enjoyed it anyway’ or people who say, ‘Yeah, I disagree with Obama about A, B, and C, but I really like his stance on X, Y, and Z, and those are my hot-button issues, so I’m going with him.’ There’s valid reason to your choice, then. And I respect that. But if you’re just fawning over his god-like ‘Change!’ speeches, and not looking into the real issues and the logistics of it, well, that’s not good. What is it he’s going to change – specifically – that you like? And how is he going to do it? I’m being serious here. (And don’t say the war, because the plans for withdrawal are already being made, and have been in the works with the Iraqi government for some time. I don’t think it’ll matter who’s elected on that front, the only difference is Obama wants to say ‘June 15th, 2010 at precisely 3pm’ and McCain is more a ‘Summer, 2010’ kind of guy. And they both say they’re in favor of expanding the military.) What is it you like so much? I can promise a pony for every child, too, but unless I have a solid plan for it, it’s just empty rhetoric (and, yeah, we all know politicians are just full of it anyway, don’t think I’m really believing anything anyone says, I’m not stupid).
Do I love McCain and think he’s the second coming? Hell no. I don’t even agree with him on everything (and I do very strongly disagree with him on a few points), though in my case the pros outweigh the cons, much more so than for Obama, so that’s why I pick him as my ‘lesser of two evils’. It has nothing to do with party affiliation – people that blindly claim they will never vote for a person of the opposite party are idiots, period. It’s about the best person for the job – and in my opinion, sometimes that’s a Republican, and sometimes that’s a Democrat. And I fear the people so blinded by ‘party loyalty’ they lose the ability to think for themselves.
Do I think the country will fall apart if Obama is elected? No, I don’t. I’m not going to threaten to (but then not) leave the country if he is. I’ll shrug, and sit back and watch the barrage of ‘it’s still the Republican’s fault’ if everything doesn’t change to sunshine and rainbows overnight (which it won’t).
You don’t know how much I’d give not to care. But I do. You don’t know how much I’d give to have a side, a real horse in the race. But I don’t. I’m as terrified of the socialist left as I am of the religious right, and I’m rejected by both. I want to be able to carry my gun, attend a same-sex wedding, stop by an abortion clinic, and have a lot more money in my pocket from my lower-tax paycheck to spend on things like football games (the real reason or Sundays, if you ask me) all while being well-protected in my bubble of happiness by a strong, top-notch military. I know, it’s a pipe dream. But where, might I ask, does someone like me fit in? Where is the financial conservative/socially liberal party? I’m a federal Republican and a local Democrat. I’m universally disliked.
I was reading a very good non-American post about this and it made me realize that in America, politicians have move from ‘necessary evil’ to ‘celebrity’ status, and I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that. It’s not about who’s hotter or who has the best hair – well, actually, it is, but it shouldn’t be. When did we start worshiping politicians, expecting them to make our lives better, instead of relying on ourselves? Why do we need the glitz and the glamour – are we so shallow that we can’t just make a decision based on the issues? Have we sunk to the point where Paris Hilton could be elected president because of her boobs? No, please, don’t answer that, I’m not sure I want to know.
The first thing I’ve noticed is an eerie parallel between fandom and politics. Between the vehement Twilight and Obama supporters. Now, calm down, this is not to say that if you like either of these things you fall into this category – I’m talking extremists, here. The kind of people that if you mention there’s a typo on page 492 of Breaking Dawn they fly into a Chris Crocker-esque fit of ‘leave Steph allllloooooonnnneee!’. By the same token, there are people that, if you dare disagree with anything Obama says – even a real, you know, issue, well, you’re racist scum (even Obama himself has started insinuating this, and it’s making me very uncomfortable – I can decide not to vote for you because I disagree with you on the issues, not because you’re black, you know). These are groups of people who are blindly devoted to something, and it’s really creepy (and, yes, a little cult-like).
However, I have no problem with people who say, ‘Yeah, Twilight had it’s problems but I enjoyed it anyway’ or people who say, ‘Yeah, I disagree with Obama about A, B, and C, but I really like his stance on X, Y, and Z, and those are my hot-button issues, so I’m going with him.’ There’s valid reason to your choice, then. And I respect that. But if you’re just fawning over his god-like ‘Change!’ speeches, and not looking into the real issues and the logistics of it, well, that’s not good. What is it he’s going to change – specifically – that you like? And how is he going to do it? I’m being serious here. (And don’t say the war, because the plans for withdrawal are already being made, and have been in the works with the Iraqi government for some time. I don’t think it’ll matter who’s elected on that front, the only difference is Obama wants to say ‘June 15th, 2010 at precisely 3pm’ and McCain is more a ‘Summer, 2010’ kind of guy. And they both say they’re in favor of expanding the military.) What is it you like so much? I can promise a pony for every child, too, but unless I have a solid plan for it, it’s just empty rhetoric (and, yeah, we all know politicians are just full of it anyway, don’t think I’m really believing anything anyone says, I’m not stupid).
Do I love McCain and think he’s the second coming? Hell no. I don’t even agree with him on everything (and I do very strongly disagree with him on a few points), though in my case the pros outweigh the cons, much more so than for Obama, so that’s why I pick him as my ‘lesser of two evils’. It has nothing to do with party affiliation – people that blindly claim they will never vote for a person of the opposite party are idiots, period. It’s about the best person for the job – and in my opinion, sometimes that’s a Republican, and sometimes that’s a Democrat. And I fear the people so blinded by ‘party loyalty’ they lose the ability to think for themselves.
Do I think the country will fall apart if Obama is elected? No, I don’t. I’m not going to threaten to (but then not) leave the country if he is. I’ll shrug, and sit back and watch the barrage of ‘it’s still the Republican’s fault’ if everything doesn’t change to sunshine and rainbows overnight (which it won’t).
You don’t know how much I’d give not to care. But I do. You don’t know how much I’d give to have a side, a real horse in the race. But I don’t. I’m as terrified of the socialist left as I am of the religious right, and I’m rejected by both. I want to be able to carry my gun, attend a same-sex wedding, stop by an abortion clinic, and have a lot more money in my pocket from my lower-tax paycheck to spend on things like football games (the real reason or Sundays, if you ask me) all while being well-protected in my bubble of happiness by a strong, top-notch military. I know, it’s a pipe dream. But where, might I ask, does someone like me fit in? Where is the financial conservative/socially liberal party? I’m a federal Republican and a local Democrat. I’m universally disliked.
I was reading a very good non-American post about this and it made me realize that in America, politicians have move from ‘necessary evil’ to ‘celebrity’ status, and I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that. It’s not about who’s hotter or who has the best hair – well, actually, it is, but it shouldn’t be. When did we start worshiping politicians, expecting them to make our lives better, instead of relying on ourselves? Why do we need the glitz and the glamour – are we so shallow that we can’t just make a decision based on the issues? Have we sunk to the point where Paris Hilton could be elected president because of her boobs? No, please, don’t answer that, I’m not sure I want to know.
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‘Yeah, Twilight had it’s problems but I enjoyed it anyway’ or people who say, ‘Yeah, I disagree with Obama about A, B, and C, but I really like his stance on X, Y, and Z, and those are my hot-button issues, so I’m going with him.’
Yay! You have no problem with me then! Though, I do admit, I find Obama very, very charismatic, but that is not the reason I support him. Also, I very distinctly remember the moment he came onto my political radar, and it was long before this presidential election, he was going to be someone that I was going to watch, even back then he made me feel a bit hopeful.
On the flip side, while McCain scares me less than the other Republicans that were initially campaigning, he still frightens me.
But what frightens me most of all, frankly, is the general population, the attitudes and ignorance and sheep mentality. I really, really lost my cool last election, I won't go into the details, as it may make me sound like an extremist (and perhaps in an anti-Bush regard, I am), but it dawned on me that worse than Bush, were the people that chose to re-elect him. Not, perhaps every person that voted for him, but absolutely the ones that voted for him for extremely stupid, misguided, and ignorant reasons (like it was simply unpatriotic not to support him). It made me really question if this is really the society I want to have any part of. It is seriously frightening and disgusting when you stop and think about how our politicians and worse, our media is a reflection of our society (oh, how I loathe our media!). Now, the counter argument is that of course there are ignorant, infuriating people everywhere, it's humankind, and that is certainly true. Sure, I made the empty threats of wanting to move to Canada, though in all honestly, if it wasn't for custody issues, I may have. I mentioned on one of your previous posts that really, truly, I don't feel a strong tie to my country, I DO care, I do, and I do recognize some of the truly phenomenal, and uniquely American aspects and appreciate them, but on the other hand, I could walk away from it all, and find somewhere else that I would be equally as happy and unhappy. I don't mean that disrespectfully, just frankly. I want to be involved and work in whatever ways I can to make this a better society, to be an active part even if I don't really feel a true belonging to it, but more often than not it is so discouraging and disheartening, that I can only concentrate on what I can do locally for my own heart and mind.
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Like me? In my defense, it was again the lesser of two evils, and I really disliked Kerry.
I'm with you on hating the media - I think a lot of our problems in society have roots there.
Funny thing, I don't find Obama charismatic - he seems more used-car-salesman slick to me, and I feel condescended to (more so than with most politicians). Perhaps I'm just too cynical...
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Hey now! The sentence following that explains what I really mean! It's more how you see people following candidates now- two people can support one person, but one can infuriate you for their so-called reasons, while the other, well, you may not agree with but you see their point of view.
I know a lot of people that are more politically ala carte like yourself, and in conversations we find we have more in common than not, even if they find themselves most aligned with the Republican party. But I am even more surrounded people who call themselves Republican because they are against same-sex marriage, think Christian prayer should be a part of the public school system, that think that everyone on welfare is lazy and have children for the primary reason to get more government money. *sigh* So often when I get frustrated and really spout off, it's usually because I've been bombarded by people with such attitudes making snide comments, rather than when I hang out with friends with more moderate right wing views.
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Besides, I'm all messed up when it comes to political affiliations.
On the plus side I worked for Ralph Nader in college, wrote for the leftist radical rag on campus, was a card carrying member of the Republican Party in high school and then became an ardent women's rights activist.
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At least you can say you've hit just about every part of the spectrum! :D
my thoughts on the matter
As for ME, I weighed the policies of Clinton and Obama and McCain before making a decision. I used to like McCain a lot and said last election that if he were to run, I'd probably vote for him. Then he actually made it as the Republican candidate and everything about him changed. Suddenly, he's doing things like cozying up to the religious right. He's moved so far right of where he used to be, I couldn't bring myself to support him.
You bring up the troop withdrawl, when Obama first said that he wanted to set a timeline, McCain jumped all over him and said that type of thinking was irresponsible. Then the Iraqi government said they wanted the same thing. Then Bush agrees, and now we're moving toward a set deadline for removing our troops. The old McCain probably would have agreed with Obama initially. The new one looked at the polls first to see how his constituents felt about it.
That's not to say Obama doesn't do that too, but it's not nearly as pronounced. Obama has shortcomings (they all do), but I think he's starting to surround himself with people who make up for those shortcomings. That actually brings me to my second most important criteria for choosing my candidate, and that's who they plan to bring with them to office. I simply like Obama's camp more, and trust them more.
Finally, check out the Obama tax credit page. I can't remember the URL, but it's out there somewhere. It shows how much your taxes will be cut under his plan (unless you make over 2 million a year, in which case you'll pay some more).
p.s. if you make more than 2 million, please invite me to your mansion, so that I may sun at your pool and drink mai tais.
Re: my thoughts on the matter
I do admit I'm not so happy with McCain backing away from his more moderate side, but I'm hoping that's just pandering and he still plans on being his less right-wing self if elected. Though I do have to admit I'm nervous about who he's going to pick as a running mate. If it's someone like Huckabee, I'm going to be an unhappy camper, that's for sure.
I saw the tax credit page - and the cut-off for saving money is somewhere around $150,000, I think, for a married couple, two incomes, no kids. At our salary and situation it's not terribly awe-inspiring, and since tax dollars DO pay my salary, I'm a little leery of too much cutting! ;) Plus, I kinda doubt he can do that AND come through on all his promises for things like health care (one of the things I really dislike about him is his plan for that) - the money has to come from somewhere. And I very much dislike the whole 'take all the money away from the oil companies' idea, because a whole lot of stocks - and people's pensions! - are tied up in that. I think people tend to forget that part. How many portfolios have stocks in some of these 'evil' companies...
My biggest turn-off about Obama right now is, admittedly, the race card. It's a little crappy that he's playing it. I know, anything to win, but that makes me pretty uncomfortable. That and I don't trust him. He's promised *too* much, and now seems like the scary stranger in the car with the candy...
Re: my thoughts on the matter
What don't you like about his health care plan?
I wouldn't worry too much about oil companies. People can change their investments. When the focus turns to renewable energy sources, they can invest in them too.
I'm not calling you out or anything, but when did Obama play the race card? I thought I was following him closely, but maybe I missed something. It seems out of character for him.
Re: my thoughts on the matter
On racism. Dammit, I can't find the link I had the other day, where a (yes, black) vet called Obama out on some of his statements. The only one I found was:
Democratic presidential contender Barack Obama said on Friday he expects Republicans to highlight the fact that he is black as part of an effort to make voters afraid of him.
“It is going to be very difficult for Republicans to run on their stewardship of the economy or their outstanding foreign policy,” Obama told a fundraiser in Jacksonville, Florida. “We know what kind of campaign they’re going to run. They’re going to try to make you afraid.
“They’re going to try to make you afraid of me. He’s young and inexperienced and he’s got a funny name. And did I mention he’s black?”
It's not the only time he's done the 'OMG BLACK!' bit in a speech, and maybe it's meant to be lighthearted and humorous, I don't know. But it's not funny. It sounds like he thinks I'm so stupid and racist that if someone says, 'gee, but he's black, you have to be afraid of him' I'm dumb enough to fall for it. There was another one where he mentions how he doesn't look like the presidents on the dollar bills, but you shouldn't let that stop you from voting for him.
Granted, it's more the media and his supporters that are pushing it (some of them really have come right out and said it) but I think it's creeping into his platform, especially in the wake of that whole plot thing.
Re: my thoughts on the matter
I'm interested to see more details about his plan for paying for these things, but if I had to guess, I'd say that a lot of it will come from a reduced budget for the Iraq war. No more huge checks to Haliburton goes a long way to saving money for what we need at home.
I'm not a fan of enormous payouts for these drug suits, but I can't say that I feel too sorry for them. If you do something wrong, you should pay a price. If all they get is a small slap on the wrist monetarily, what's to stop them from doing the same thing again in the future? If you're a CEO of this company, and you see that you made X million off of a drug that didn't go through proper testing, and you only had to pay a few thousand in fines for your behavior, are you going to do it again? Yeah, probably. We need to find a happy medium somewhere on this issue. Maybe only a fraction of the winnings goes to the plaintiff and the majority goes to paying for health care. :)
Finally, I hope he doesn't plan on making that major part of his campaign. It's naive to think that race won't play some part, though. More than a few people can't stand the thought of having a black president. When he talks about people using that against him, I assume he's talking about extremists. I hope so, anyway.
Re: my thoughts on the matter
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EXACTLY (except for the abortion thing, but good-hearted people differ on the issue). PJ O'Rourke said it best - I want a government that minds its own business and keeps its hands to itself.
I've sort of left the Kansas far-right GOP and now tend to align myself with the Kansas Traditional Republican Majority folks. I tend to think of them as "all of the things you like about the GOP and none of the 'Jesus rode a dinosaur' idiots." (http://www.ktrm.org for more info)
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"all of the things you like about the GOP and none of the 'Jesus rode a dinosaur' idiots."
*giggle* That's perfect. If they'd just keep religion out of politics I'd be a happy camper!
i really wish i could vote in this election. :P us politics > aus politics.
I think I'm on my way to morphing into one of those Obama supporters.
Okay, maybe not completely but I feel like it having read that post. :P I have looked at both their policies and from what I understand to be completely honest, I like what Obama says a lot more. Also, Palin shits me.
When did we start worshiping politicians, expecting them to make our lives better, instead of relying on ourselves? Why do we need the glitz and the glamour – are we so shallow that we can’t just make a decision based on the issues?
That's true. However, I am still an Obama fangirl. >.>
Re: i really wish i could vote in this election. :P us politics > aus politics.
I've listened to Obama, too, and he doesn't say anything. He just talks a lot. Empty promises. And his work as a Senator? Yeah, I think he voted 'present' (that is, did not vote one way or the other) on the majority of the issues. That speaks volumes - if a person is so afraid of making a wrong choice that they won't make any choice, that person should not be leading a country.
He's promised miraculous reform that will cost a bundle and that we'll have a decrease in taxes. You don't have to be an economist to realize that can't happen.
Do I think McCain is a good choice? No, and I'm very anti-Palin, as well. But do I think Obama is the second coming? Hell no, and I can't believe people are so... naive that they forget he is, first and foremost, a politician. And 90% of what he says is probably a lie.
Forgive me, I'm very, very, very bitter right now. But I honestly believe that if Obama is elected, and the House and Senate stay in Democrat control, my standard of living is going to take a serious nose-dive. And I like my life, and don't think I should have to give up huge sums of my hard-earned money to other people.
aaaaaaaahhh i should be studying for exams.
Yeah, I was wondering how the US LJ'ers are taking everyone and their pet weighing in on something that they have little first-hand experience with. That said, what US does affects the rest of the world yadda yadda too I guess.
you can't know what our health care and tax situations are like
This is very true.
Also, the media is very very pro-Obama. Or the media here is very pro-Obama.
he is, first and foremost, a politician
*nodnod* But I have higher hopes for him than McCain/Palin.
I don't know. I had trouble understanding people re-electing Bush in the last election. I actually liked McCain when he started running and before he started agreeing with the core-Republican views. Er, as in I liked Obama more from the start but I didn't disagree with McCain as much as I do now.
When it comes down to it, I don't... expect Obama to be the second coming everyone is expecting/thinking he will be but I expect him to be better than McCain I guess. We'll see I guess. And hopefully stuff doesn't get worse.
Also, this links back to the media here being very pro-Obama but has Obama's campaign run many negative-to-McCain/Palin ads? Cos we hear about McCain running all these anti-Obama ads and the robocall-ing and that was something that disposed me to disliking him but I don't even know if Obama did the same thing in his campaign.
Re: aaaaaaaahhh i should be studying for exams.
Is Obama running negative ads? Oh hell yes he is. Lots of them. It's just... not everywhere. He's targeted certain negative ads to negative regions. I saw an artical in a British paper that wondered if, after how vocal he was about them, it would tarnish his reputation now that he turned around and did exactly what he was condeming. Apparently not.
The country elected Bush a second time because the alternative was Kerry, and that was a frightening prospect. Do I agree with a lot of what Bush has done? No, not at all. Our freedoms are being eroded and I fear the pace will only accelerate in the near future. In some ways I think it will be worse under Obama, but other times I think he'll be just a very ineffective, useless president. Much like Clinton, only hopefully without the sex scandal.
Whatever happens, I don't think it's going to be pretty. And, deep in my heart, I don't think things are going to get better any time soon. I also have to admit, honestly, that it wouldn't be entirely Obama's fault (though the Democrats really should carry quite a bit of responsibility for the current crisis, but they refuse to admit that it was their Congress and their Senate that passed a lot of this crap) if things don't get better. And in part I don't want to see him fail like that because, even though it's wrong, you know people will play the race card. And I don't want to have to hear that crap. (Also, admittedly, I don't want to pay more in taxes, and no matter what he says, Democrats ALWAYS raise taxes - Republicans only do it half the time...)
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I agree with this. I figure they both endorsed it because it's not exactly going to get you votes if you say you're going to let people suffer with a shitty economy. Everyone wants Insta-fix instead of thinking about the long run. =/
re: negative ads - noooooo damnit, I was counting on him being a better person rather than a better politician.
This is kinda similar [in my head? maybe not really.] to our elections last year. =/ Though Rudd [who was the Obama-lite here I guess] has not screwed up like I have been expecting him to.
people will play the race card
bleeeeeeeeeeeeergggh
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I think (hope) that people will eventually wake up and see him for what he is - a politician. The fact that, to visit his web site, you had to click through a 'No, I don't want to donate money' screen was sickening. I should be able to at least see his stance on things without being bombarded with 'gimme money gimmee money gimme money'. Campaign reform, my ass. Do as I say, not as I do, apparently.
Ah, well, I was ticked when Clinton was elected a second term, and I can't say I've been pleased with Bush in his second term, but I'll survive. I just... I just really want people to be rational and reasonable and not blind to his imperfections - and be full well able to admit if he screws up. But they won't, it will still all be the Republican's fault, because no one can take any personal responsibility these days.
*sekritly hides battered tinhat from variety of fandom causes behind back* *shifty look*
I just really want people to be rational and reasonable and not blind to his imperfections - and be full well able to admit if he screws up.
/seconds. I do think that they'll be more likely to do this after he's elected - I think people are cynical enough to hope desperately for whatever Obama says he'll do but they won't be naive enough to expect him to follow through- well not completely.
And in yeah, they'll spend the requisite amount of time blaming the Reps but after a while, you really can't blame anyone else any more. At least not reasonably. Though I guess we're specifically talking about the tinhat brigade here. =(
Re: *sekritly hides battered tinhat from variety of fandom causes behind back* *shifty look*
You, m'dear, are certainly not from around these parts. The Democrats aren't responsible for anything that has gone wrong in the last... well, since the country was founded. They will find a way that it's not his fault. Look at how they rallied around Clinton, even after he was impeached. Seriously, he celebrated that, like it was no big deal. And they can't even admit they ever lose an election - if McCain wins it'll be because the voting machines are rigged, or voters were turned away, or any other type of out-and-out fraud. They simply cannot concede that there are quite a few people out there that disagree with them and voted differently. Hell, they are still going on and on and on about how the 2000 election was rigged. Because no one could have voted for Bush over Gore, obviously.
but after a while, you really can't blame anyone else any more. At least not reasonably. Though I guess we're specifically talking about the tinhat brigade here. =(
Which, sadly, seems to be 75% of the Democrats (and, I'll be fair, an equal portion of the Republicans). They will never let it go. :(
Re: *sekritly hides battered tinhat from variety of fandom causes behind back* *shifty look*
they are still going on and on and on about how the 2000 election was rigged
lol yeah, people are bitter like that a lot i guess.
politics and religion. they sure as hell create some whack jobs.
>.> /hypocrisy.
also! *HUGS* for you cos you seem so bleh, esp about this.
Re: *sekritly hides battered tinhat from variety of fandom causes behind back* *shifty look*
I'm so over it, I don't even want to be around for the nasty gloating I know is going to take place tonight/tomorrow. Perhaps I will just wrap myself in NaNo and do nothing but work on my story and post that. Maybe by December things will have calmed down.